This is a hard topic to communicate in depression treatment. It's easy to mistake substances that temporarily boost your mood or calm your nerves for effective treatments for an underlying condition.
There was a brief period of time before the opioid prescribing backlash when some fringe psychiatrists were proposing weaker opioids as adjunctive treatments for treatment resistant depression. It's hard to fathom now, but opioids were more casually prescribed a few decades ago. I recall some discussion where one of them said they were seeing good initial results but the effects faded, and then it was hard to get the patients off of the opioids when they were no longer helping. Not surprising to anyone now, but remember there was a period of time where many seemingly forgot about their addictive properties.
I feel like I've seen a weaker version of this in some friends who turned to THC to "treat" their depression: Initial mood boost, followed by dependency, then eventually into a protracted period where they know it's not helping but they don't want to stop because they feel worse when they discontinue. This wasn't helped by the decades of claims that claimed THC was basically free of dependency problems.
> but remember there was a period of time where many seemingly forgot about their addictive properties.
There was also quite alot of talk about how doctors, by being reticent to prescribe opioids, were inhumanely forcing patients to live in pain, and not being sufficiently deferential to patient autonomy. Moreover, the rhetoric was incorporated into discussions about racist disparities in treatment, given there was some evidence doctors were less likely to prescribe opioids to black patients, suggesting doctors were systematically being cruel. Naturally, the easiest way to dodge those accusations was to simply prescribe opioids as a matter of course. Even in the absence of Purdue Pharma pushing their claims about lack of significant addictive potential, there was already significant pressure to discount the risk of addiction.
If you take it and you feel your anxiety is lessened, that's the greatest proof you can ask for. All the psychiatric studies are already based on self assessment.
Second, a lot of psychatric treatments are temporary, ending whenever the medication is stopped or wears off so I dont see how this would be any different
> If you take it and you feel your anxiety is lessened, that's the greatest proof you can ask for.
This mistake has been made many time throughout history. Cocaine was originally believed to be a viable treatment for depression. Opioids and amphetamines too. You take them and you feel good for a while, which was mistakenly equated with treating depression.
Many drugs will make you feel good temporarily by blocking certain feelings or tricking your brain into feeling good. This is not the same as treating a condition.
You can think of actual treatments as working closer to the source to reduce the problem, not temporarily overriding it with a powerful drug-induced sensation.
Psychiatry as its practiced has no idea as to what depression even is under the hood. The entire science is based on the patients self reported feelings or the psychatrists feeling of how someone else is feeling.
What you're saying is something else, that drugs can produce long term harm despite short term improvements
> Cocaine was originally believed to be a viable treatment for depression.
Is it not??
Sure there's the addiction and harm from abuse that make it less than ideal for long term use, to put it mildly, but weed isn't coke so what's really the argument here?
Duration of effect matters when it comes to successful treatments.
If we take your position and apply reductio ad absurdum, we could say that cocaine is a highly effective treatment for anxiety, although of course we know that in the not-so-long run it has the opposite effect.
But a lot of psychatric treatments are just that. Treatment for ADHD for example is giving ampethamines (which btw are chemically no different than a low dose of meth), which have a duration of 3-6 hours and its back to worse than baseline after the effect has worn off.
There’s a difference between intoxication and treating the chemical imbalance behind depression or anxiety. For one thing, treatments for anxiety only target the anxiety: they don’t impair the person the way that weed or alcohol does. (They can have other side effects, of course.)
Drugs for anxiety treatment do wear off, but not the same way that weed or alcohol does: something like Celexa takes a few weeks to build up in the system, and don’t lose effect 12-24 hours later if you miss a dose. I’m not sure how long you’d have to stop before it loses efficacy entirely.
I’m not Nancy Reagan, though: I would not advise people to self-medicate with booze or pot if they’re suffering from depression or anxiety, but I’m not going to preach at anybody who is doing so and thinks it’s working for them. I will say that I’ve seen that end badly, though. I can think of three people I’m close to who’ve tried it and have had problems with addiction: all of them are now sober and (I believe) on regular antidepressants.
Im prescribed adderall for ADHD. It is a high. You feel more positive, more productive, more forward looking for a few hours and its back to baseline or worse when you crash.
As for impairment, it really depends. If weed removes your anxiety and lets you relax, its benefit could be greater for what youre doing than the impairment it causes. And adderall, SSRIs can cause impairment of sorts too.
Psychiatric treatments return a person to a baseline that can be managed with therapy or healthy coping mechanisms.
Chasing a high is not a treatment, it merely defers the problem. As tolerance to the high builds, patients lose the therapeutic value but have gained crippling dependency and addiction.
I think the problem is that, at least in my experience, you end up with more anxiety once the initial high wears off. Paranoia is an extremely common side effect of Marijuana, and so are nightmares with prolonged use. And once you kinda get into a routine with it, you have a hard time quitting, because your overall anxiety is raised, and you need it just to get back to a normal functioning level. My guess is that this is due to the effects that THC has on blocking your REM sleep. Without the proper REM sleep, it seems pretty common to be anxious and foggy-brained.
Doing ten shots of tequila is a 100% scientifically proven cure for social anxiety then. If you take it and your anxiety lessens, that's the greatest proof you can ask for! Let's just completely ignore the crippling morning hangover and liver damage
I mean... Yeah. Alcohol is very well documented and even more widely used for exactly this purpose BECAUSE it works.
The side-effects are often terrible. This is also true for many widely-prescribed drugs, and has been even more true in the past. The folks I've known on MAOIs were pretty wrecked.
I've always been suspicious of the claims THC helps anxiety. CBD may, but my experience is that high doses of THC without corresponding CBD tends to induce anxiety in many people. I also found the brief notes in the article about MMJ and autism intriguing. I'm diagnosed ASD. I would think the use of THC to manage overstimulation could be problematic, as it tends to make colors and sounds and flavours _more_ intense. Conversely, indica strains tend to slow you down.
DISCLOSURE: I use large amounts of high potency cannabis flower with CBD/CBG edibles for intractable neuropathic pain. I also smoked a hell of a lot of weed in my 20s and 30s. I've more experience of Pot than most. MMJ lowers my pain a bit, and reduces suffering a lot. Its the suffering that makes life difficult.
American media has really been shockingly pro weed/cannabis for the past 20 or so years. Really astounding to witness considering the well known downsides to human health and cognitive function. Main characters smoke weed as a cool disobedience, in sitcoms even.
Wonder what is behind it, from my perspective it's quite remarkable.
Tell that to my depression. Back before I got sober days after alcohol were certainly some of my lowest mood days. Its well known that alcohol impares next day production of neurotransmitters responsible for balancing moods.
Now I've been sober for 7 years and my depression has been treated, but I certainly remember those days
- The title is just saying that this recreational drug isn't a long-term medicine for these 3 conditions (but then it helps with some others). I guess we don't expect this of alcohol or anything else, so that is what it is.
- Personally I'm a bit skeptical of this finding, but again like alcohol, I think weed is best enjoyed a few times a week, so I guess I don't see it as a everyday treatment for depression and such. But certainly while enjoying it one is less anxious and depressed.
- And I guess it should be pointed out that treating depression is very hard. Lots of people find SSRIs don't work long term, therapy has a very low R^2, etc.
I guess if you weren't around for the 30 years when every marijuana advocate on the planet wouldn't shut up about it being a cure for anxiety, evidence that it is not wouldn't be particularly interesting to you.
- Not adjusted for strain, dose or delivery method across all studies.
- Not adjusted for receptor downregulation, for which rotation and/or drug holidays would be appropriate strategies.
- Not adjusted across all studies for time effect, e.g. 6 hours of relief, 1 hour, etc.
I can tell you from personal experience with a related disorder that disciplined rotation of 10mg edible cannabis provides 90% relief, 90% of the time, with far fewer side effects than alternative medications for the same disorder.
The Lancet has been around for 200 years. It publishes weekly.
It's a highly regarded journal, but it doesn't mean 100% of the papers published are perfect.
If you're trying to dismiss a study because it was published in The Lancet then that's not a convincing line of reasoning to anyone who understands the scientific publishing landscape.
These dismissals based on the source rather than the material are getting really annoying. We’re supposed to be intellectuals here, we can do better than that.
As someone who's used cannabis regularly for over a decade, I tried to start to explain in this body my experience but every sentence written ends with me deciding, "that's too circumstantial to my lifestyle-physiology to include."
I think at the end of the day, empirical research's purpose is to get us closer to being able to just make our own decisions surrounding mind-altering drugs. Beyond that, cannabis affects a great deal of systems in our body concurrent to the rest of our environment's effects. Use your autonomy to determine if it's a positive or a negative for you. Don't drive fucked up, please.
This is the most reasonable take I’ve seen in this whole thread. Alcohol doesn’t reduce anxiety either yet tons of people take it as a social lubricant and it probably does more damage to those consuming it than those who consume weed. So shrug? Just be responsible folks and let people blow off steam how they like without judging it like weed is an 8 ball.
The studies cited by this metastudy all suffer from the same issue: They aren't studying the cannabis plant at all and even if they are, it's not in the chemovars (chemical makeups) that real consumers are actually consuming - due to cannabis sourcing issues stemming from cannabis's continued illegality.
For randomized controlled trials, even in "legal" states, university scientists can't just walk into a dispensary and buy cannabis to then administer to test subjects.
That's Post-Prohibition for you.
As far as I can tell, most (EDITED FROM ALL) of the studies utilize isolates - and not necessarily in conjunction.
For instance, none of the 6 anxiety studies included in this metastudy used THC and CBD together.
The headline could read instead: No evidence cannabinoid isolates help anxiety, depression, or PTSD.
Cannabis advocates are the first to mention the entourage effect. Cannabis prohibitionists on the other hand, love nothing more than to cite incomplete science.
Using quantified isolates is the correct way to do a controlled study. Dosing is important.
Claims that you need a special combination of exactly the right strains are just a way to move the goalposts forever. They could study 10 different strains in controlled trials and the same people would show up to dismiss this study because they weren't using some random strain that has some perfect combination of entourage effect.
Using actual plants and smoking would also introduce another major variable, with further claims that the strains they were giving patients were too weak or they were smoking it wrong.
EDIT: I don't have time to read every single citation included, but the claim above that they were all THC or CBD isolates does not appear correct. One randomly selected citation:
> The short-term impact of 3 smoked cannabis preparations versus placebo on PTSD symptoms: a randomized cross-over clinical trial
So the claim above that they didn't investigate smoked cannabis or "entourage effect" is false.
Way to completely misunderstand and try in an underhanded way to the dismiss entourage effect.
It’s not smoking 10 strains in a row it’s the fact that you need CBD THC and all the terpenes to get the effects. So the current growing trend of just getting the THC number higher tends to result in plants that don’t actually give people the full spectrum of effects, beneficial or not.
So the correct way to do this would be a full spectrum isolate, which again you coincidently forgot to mention I’m sure.
I never said it was. I was saying you could run 10 different studies on 10 different strains with 10 different "entourage effect" profiles and even if all of them were negative, they would be dismissed as not having precisely the right entourage effect.
If there are anti-depressant compounds in cannabis plants then they can be extracted and isolated, too.
> So the correct way to do this would be a full spectrum isolate, which again you coincidently forgot to mention I’m sure.
Of course, the correct formulation is something other than what was tested, right? And if they tested a full spectrum isolate with negative results, we should assume that it just wasn't the right blend of terpenes and therefore that study should be dismissed too? Repeat ad nauseum?
That's a great example study to highlight what I really mean by entourage effect. I've edited my post to emphasize most not all - i only looked at the 6 anxiety studies as that's what I have the most experience with - as well as the included table which highlighted that the vast majority of studies included in this metastudy only looked at THC.
That particular study did look at High THC low CBD, mid THC mid CBD, and high CBD low THC. There's no information on the terpene profile of the smoked cannabis preparations, though, and that is a confounding variable in the entourage effect that potentially defeats the part of the entourage effect they did test. Additionally, a quick look at the cannabinoid %s in those smoked preparations rehighlights my point that these are not inclusive of all the chemical compositions that the cannabis plant could present itself in.
I still stand by my point and hope the clarifications bring the conversation back on track to the fact I was highlighting which is simply that this is a metastudy built off of studies that were conducted with restrictions on experimental design that few observers fully understand the research implications of.
Yeah, I noticed this too. Canadian universities have been studying cannabis use using actual cannabis, so I'm not sure why this metastudy considered anything else. "We need to publish something" perhaps.
>The headline could read instead: No evidence cannabinoid isolates help anxiety, depression, or PTSD.
There’s no evidence that what they tested with was pure THC isolates. If they’re using cannabis in plant form, even if it was bred for higher thc content, there is still cbd.
Those that are interested to click through should and see the studies cited by this metastudy and whether they used whole plant cannabis extracts, cannabis isolates, or even non cannabis derived isolates.
tldr; "If they're using cannabis in plant form" is a very, very high bar for the current state of cannabis (really cannabinoid) research.
My initial take from reading the headline was: no shit this is what mdma is for…
Tangentially,
The etymology nerd in me has been taunted by the current article thats been on the front page for the as of now last 19 hours[1] which conveniently has the origin of the term linked to in the first sentence! [2]… which @suprisetalk also links to in the article description!…
So now I’m wondering why mdma has got the street name molly… and if they're not perhaps related?
As in molly (aka mdma) has got the name as its used as a guard against these ailments specifically…
How does your "anyone knows" control for false negatives? i.e. how can you be certain that the people you met who aren't "anxious and stupid" aren't also weed addicts?
Well how do you know if you overdosed? What else happens besides anxiety and paranoia? Some of the reaction may be genetic, but I think many people have a negative reaction to taking mass quantities of cannabis. I don't know if you want to take a poll here but it's pretty common...
There was a brief period of time before the opioid prescribing backlash when some fringe psychiatrists were proposing weaker opioids as adjunctive treatments for treatment resistant depression. It's hard to fathom now, but opioids were more casually prescribed a few decades ago. I recall some discussion where one of them said they were seeing good initial results but the effects faded, and then it was hard to get the patients off of the opioids when they were no longer helping. Not surprising to anyone now, but remember there was a period of time where many seemingly forgot about their addictive properties.
I feel like I've seen a weaker version of this in some friends who turned to THC to "treat" their depression: Initial mood boost, followed by dependency, then eventually into a protracted period where they know it's not helping but they don't want to stop because they feel worse when they discontinue. This wasn't helped by the decades of claims that claimed THC was basically free of dependency problems.
There was also quite alot of talk about how doctors, by being reticent to prescribe opioids, were inhumanely forcing patients to live in pain, and not being sufficiently deferential to patient autonomy. Moreover, the rhetoric was incorporated into discussions about racist disparities in treatment, given there was some evidence doctors were less likely to prescribe opioids to black patients, suggesting doctors were systematically being cruel. Naturally, the easiest way to dodge those accusations was to simply prescribe opioids as a matter of course. Even in the absence of Purdue Pharma pushing their claims about lack of significant addictive potential, there was already significant pressure to discount the risk of addiction.
If you take it and you feel your anxiety is lessened, that's the greatest proof you can ask for. All the psychiatric studies are already based on self assessment.
Second, a lot of psychatric treatments are temporary, ending whenever the medication is stopped or wears off so I dont see how this would be any different
This mistake has been made many time throughout history. Cocaine was originally believed to be a viable treatment for depression. Opioids and amphetamines too. You take them and you feel good for a while, which was mistakenly equated with treating depression.
Many drugs will make you feel good temporarily by blocking certain feelings or tricking your brain into feeling good. This is not the same as treating a condition.
You can think of actual treatments as working closer to the source to reduce the problem, not temporarily overriding it with a powerful drug-induced sensation.
Psychiatry as its practiced has no idea as to what depression even is under the hood. The entire science is based on the patients self reported feelings or the psychatrists feeling of how someone else is feeling.
What you're saying is something else, that drugs can produce long term harm despite short term improvements
This study is showing that THC, CBD, blends, or cannabis do not improve self-reported feelings over the long term.
> What you're saying is something else, that drugs can produce long term harm despite short term improvements
Recreational drugs make you feel good temporarily. That's literally why people do them.
They also cause harm when abused.
These are all obvious and well known facts.
Is it not??
Sure there's the addiction and harm from abuse that make it less than ideal for long term use, to put it mildly, but weed isn't coke so what's really the argument here?
It's not a cure. It's a high.
They may also have some other effects.
If we take your position and apply reductio ad absurdum, we could say that cocaine is a highly effective treatment for anxiety, although of course we know that in the not-so-long run it has the opposite effect.
Drugs for anxiety treatment do wear off, but not the same way that weed or alcohol does: something like Celexa takes a few weeks to build up in the system, and don’t lose effect 12-24 hours later if you miss a dose. I’m not sure how long you’d have to stop before it loses efficacy entirely.
I’m not Nancy Reagan, though: I would not advise people to self-medicate with booze or pot if they’re suffering from depression or anxiety, but I’m not going to preach at anybody who is doing so and thinks it’s working for them. I will say that I’ve seen that end badly, though. I can think of three people I’m close to who’ve tried it and have had problems with addiction: all of them are now sober and (I believe) on regular antidepressants.
As for impairment, it really depends. If weed removes your anxiety and lets you relax, its benefit could be greater for what youre doing than the impairment it causes. And adderall, SSRIs can cause impairment of sorts too.
Chasing a high is not a treatment, it merely defers the problem. As tolerance to the high builds, patients lose the therapeutic value but have gained crippling dependency and addiction.
The side-effects are often terrible. This is also true for many widely-prescribed drugs, and has been even more true in the past. The folks I've known on MAOIs were pretty wrecked.
DISCLOSURE: I use large amounts of high potency cannabis flower with CBD/CBG edibles for intractable neuropathic pain. I also smoked a hell of a lot of weed in my 20s and 30s. I've more experience of Pot than most. MMJ lowers my pain a bit, and reduces suffering a lot. Its the suffering that makes life difficult.
Wonder what is behind it, from my perspective it's quite remarkable.
Plenty of people use cannabis to alleviate symptoms. I don't think they expect to be cured entirely.
Now I've been sober for 7 years and my depression has been treated, but I certainly remember those days
- The title is just saying that this recreational drug isn't a long-term medicine for these 3 conditions (but then it helps with some others). I guess we don't expect this of alcohol or anything else, so that is what it is.
- Personally I'm a bit skeptical of this finding, but again like alcohol, I think weed is best enjoyed a few times a week, so I guess I don't see it as a everyday treatment for depression and such. But certainly while enjoying it one is less anxious and depressed.
- And I guess it should be pointed out that treating depression is very hard. Lots of people find SSRIs don't work long term, therapy has a very low R^2, etc.
So, why do people use cannabis then?
Not because they're effective treatments for mental disorders
- Not adjusted for strain, dose or delivery method across all studies.
- Not adjusted for receptor downregulation, for which rotation and/or drug holidays would be appropriate strategies.
- Not adjusted across all studies for time effect, e.g. 6 hours of relief, 1 hour, etc.
I can tell you from personal experience with a related disorder that disciplined rotation of 10mg edible cannabis provides 90% relief, 90% of the time, with far fewer side effects than alternative medications for the same disorder.
It's a highly regarded journal, but it doesn't mean 100% of the papers published are perfect.
If you're trying to dismiss a study because it was published in The Lancet then that's not a convincing line of reasoning to anyone who understands the scientific publishing landscape.
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/practically-a-book-review-r...
https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/the-case-against-the-...
As someone who's used cannabis regularly for over a decade, I tried to start to explain in this body my experience but every sentence written ends with me deciding, "that's too circumstantial to my lifestyle-physiology to include."
I think at the end of the day, empirical research's purpose is to get us closer to being able to just make our own decisions surrounding mind-altering drugs. Beyond that, cannabis affects a great deal of systems in our body concurrent to the rest of our environment's effects. Use your autonomy to determine if it's a positive or a negative for you. Don't drive fucked up, please.
For randomized controlled trials, even in "legal" states, university scientists can't just walk into a dispensary and buy cannabis to then administer to test subjects.
That's Post-Prohibition for you.
As far as I can tell, most (EDITED FROM ALL) of the studies utilize isolates - and not necessarily in conjunction.
For instance, none of the 6 anxiety studies included in this metastudy used THC and CBD together.
The headline could read instead: No evidence cannabinoid isolates help anxiety, depression, or PTSD.
Cannabis advocates are the first to mention the entourage effect. Cannabis prohibitionists on the other hand, love nothing more than to cite incomplete science.
Claims that you need a special combination of exactly the right strains are just a way to move the goalposts forever. They could study 10 different strains in controlled trials and the same people would show up to dismiss this study because they weren't using some random strain that has some perfect combination of entourage effect.
Using actual plants and smoking would also introduce another major variable, with further claims that the strains they were giving patients were too weak or they were smoking it wrong.
EDIT: I don't have time to read every single citation included, but the claim above that they were all THC or CBD isolates does not appear correct. One randomly selected citation:
> The short-term impact of 3 smoked cannabis preparations versus placebo on PTSD symptoms: a randomized cross-over clinical trial
So the claim above that they didn't investigate smoked cannabis or "entourage effect" is false.
It’s not smoking 10 strains in a row it’s the fact that you need CBD THC and all the terpenes to get the effects. So the current growing trend of just getting the THC number higher tends to result in plants that don’t actually give people the full spectrum of effects, beneficial or not.
So the correct way to do this would be a full spectrum isolate, which again you coincidently forgot to mention I’m sure.
I never said it was. I was saying you could run 10 different studies on 10 different strains with 10 different "entourage effect" profiles and even if all of them were negative, they would be dismissed as not having precisely the right entourage effect.
If there are anti-depressant compounds in cannabis plants then they can be extracted and isolated, too.
> So the correct way to do this would be a full spectrum isolate, which again you coincidently forgot to mention I’m sure.
Of course, the correct formulation is something other than what was tested, right? And if they tested a full spectrum isolate with negative results, we should assume that it just wasn't the right blend of terpenes and therefore that study should be dismissed too? Repeat ad nauseum?
That's the correct way to do a controlled study on the isolate - not the plant that it comes from.
It's clear to me at least that the authors of the metastudy conflate the two and many shades between them for purposes of this study.
You could study one combination that is broadly representative and is much much closer than the isolate.
The claim above about only looking at isolates was false.
That particular study did look at High THC low CBD, mid THC mid CBD, and high CBD low THC. There's no information on the terpene profile of the smoked cannabis preparations, though, and that is a confounding variable in the entourage effect that potentially defeats the part of the entourage effect they did test. Additionally, a quick look at the cannabinoid %s in those smoked preparations rehighlights my point that these are not inclusive of all the chemical compositions that the cannabis plant could present itself in.
I still stand by my point and hope the clarifications bring the conversation back on track to the fact I was highlighting which is simply that this is a metastudy built off of studies that were conducted with restrictions on experimental design that few observers fully understand the research implications of.
There’s no evidence that what they tested with was pure THC isolates. If they’re using cannabis in plant form, even if it was bred for higher thc content, there is still cbd.
tldr; "If they're using cannabis in plant form" is a very, very high bar for the current state of cannabis (really cannabinoid) research.
Tangentially, The etymology nerd in me has been taunted by the current article thats been on the front page for the as of now last 19 hours[1] which conveniently has the origin of the term linked to in the first sentence! [2]… which @suprisetalk also links to in the article description!…
So now I’m wondering why mdma has got the street name molly… and if they're not perhaps related?
As in molly (aka mdma) has got the name as its used as a guard against these ailments specifically…
[1] https://unsung.aresluna.org/molly-guard-in-reverse/
[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/molly-guard
Anyone who knows a weed addict knows that they end up anxious and stupid. It actually seems to reduce their IQ while they’re using it regularly.
It's a shame that first experiences with stress also coincide with that phase of life, so the debate never ends.