Copyright does not protect AI-generated content in EU

(mathstodon.xyz)

51 points | by u1hcw9nx 1 hour ago

15 comments

  • jmward01 2 minutes ago
    I don't see an easy test here. Worse, I see the beginnings of a test that is technical and very likely to not match the future of how we will interact with these things. We have to start somewhere but I'm not sure 'Neither mere prompting nor the selection between several AI suggestions is sufficient as a human creative contribution.' is the right place to start. I think we need more examples of what does constitute 'human-centric' and work from there. I also don't think that any system that says 'you didn't do enough work so it isn't human-centric' works. Any system like that will require a reexamining of copyright in general. There is a lot of low work copyrighted material out there. Just because 'AI' didn't build it doesn't mean the same tests shouldn't apply.

    Some examples of why I think this is really hard: Say I build a story generation system. I work hard on building an agent swarm of actors, critics, editors, researchers. I craft into the various agents concepts of story arcs, outlining techniques, character development. I build a huge well thought out process for how to agentically write an actually good story, so long as you give it a title. Heck, I even design and train my own custom LLM with original layer ideas and novel training techniques to use on this system. After all that I then take that final step and give it a title. Do I have no claim to that? I probably put more work and creativity into it than an author would have a book. What if I then gave it 500 titles? 5,000? Would my claim degrade the more titles I fed it? Is it a percentage of work question? What is the core concept here that defines 'human-centric'? What is the cut-off here?

    Let's go even further. I don't prompt. I live in a world with unlimited context models. I have a conversation about the book I want it to write. During that process I reject some ideas and accept others. I didn't give it a 'system prompt' but essentially all I did was prompt it and select versions I liked. Is that not human centric? How about if I asked it for advice and it did some editing work on my story? Did that make it not human centric even though the starting text was mine? What if that starting text was 99% replaced with a version 10x as verbose. Defining based on how you interacted with the model (prompted and selected) just seems way to weak to be a clear test.

  • t-writescode 46 minutes ago
    This matches historical precedent in other nations where copyright was not extended to a photographer when a primate took a photo of themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_disput...

  • zmmmmm 1 minute ago
    it's sort of non-controversial at the extreme end I think - where there is no human contribution, why should there be protection?

    But it just begs the actual question of how much human contribution there needs to be:

    - I wrote the prompt (not enough)

    - I wrote many prompts and iteratively refined them using distinctly human skill (open question, but loosely seems still not enough, potentially in the EU but maybe in the US?)

    - I made minor modifications post-generation (open question, probably enough)

    - I made equal or more contribution to the final result (this better clearly have copyright protection or we are in real trouble)

  • pizzly 35 minutes ago
    As software, creative works, science, etc become more and more contributed via AI does that mean all future works will not be copyrighted or patented? Under our current copyright culture and laws obviously not but that does open the question to how much does a human have to contribute and what evidence is required to show that a human contributed enough so that it can be copyrighted and patented. Some time in the future (may be many years) science may become to complicated for humans to understand fully with AI systems researching themselves. Current patent laws in many places including US says inventions created entirely by artificial intelligence cannot be patented. This future may be coming. What will the new copyright and patent laws look like in the future? Do we need copyrights and patents anymore?
    • raincole 32 minutes ago
      It means as long as you can find a few employees who testify that they made "creative input" during the process and nobody can disprove that, you're fine.

      It's like things that are already in public domain. Even if you make a coloring book out of paintings in public domain, it doesn't necessarily mean others can just print your book as-is.

      • pizzly 27 minutes ago
        Perhaps but what about individual works done not via a company. Say you are a author and someone falsely detects a AI watermark in your book. Is the testimony you provide enough to override that falsely detected AI watermark? My feeling is that there will be an industry that arises that proves you contributed to the works you want copyrighted.
        • raincole 25 minutes ago
          (I think) the case depends on what AI watermarks are. As far as I know, things like SynthID has practically zero false positives.
      • Obscurity4340 27 minutes ago
        Like being an executive producer
    • 0x20cowboy 9 minutes ago
      "Content that is entirely generated by artificial intelligence is not protected by copyright."

      If that is faithful reading of the law, that makes sense. I know a number of people who use AI, but none of them (that are making anything actually useful) have the output "entirely generated" (aside from some POC tests that never see the light of day).

      I have a hard time believing anything of value, anything worth copyrighting, could be entirely generated by AI.

    • Eridrus 19 minutes ago
      This is less relevant for logos & creative works, but things that enable companies to do production will go back to being closely guarded and sharded secrets, which is what the patent system was trying to resolve (though we can certainly argue the success of it).

      If companies fail to protect their investments in generating IP, they will stop investing in generating it.

      And unless IP generation costs (all in, including the humans telling them what to generate) fall close to zero, it will be bad for the world if companies cannot recoup investments in generating new IP.

      We would expect this to hit those industries relying on IP protections the most, e.g. pharma.

    • sva_ 27 minutes ago
      > Content that is entirely generated [...]

      Take note of the qualifier entirely. If you're working with an agent steering it to produce the results you want, it would be an entirely different story.

      • pizzly 24 minutes ago
        Wheres the limit. Would a prompt "Create a system that does x" and no other feedback count? Or do need to do 10 prompts to steer your agent to the results you want. What about just 1 additional prompt. Somewhere there will be a line.
        • oblio 21 minutes ago
          Legal systems are fuzzy. The limit will be what courtrooms decide. There will never be a ">75% of content" law, everything will be left to interpretation, laws are not source code.
      • koolala 20 minutes ago
        Is working with an agent different than constantly editing an image with fine tuning prompts? Both can be entirely generated.
      • colordrops 26 minutes ago
        Where is this qualification in the legal language?
        • _aavaa_ 23 minutes ago
          Where is the legal language?
    • dev1ycan 32 minutes ago
      Why would copyright and patents exist when the US blatantly stole the entire world's knowledge to train their AI models (and China distillled from it)
      • benjismith 30 minutes ago
        Knowledge cannot be "stolen"
        • sebastiennight 23 minutes ago
          You wrote your house's security code on a Post-It note. Somebody came in as a houseparty guest and saw the note, and discretely copied it onto their hand to get access to the house during your next vacation.

          Which verb would describe their knowledge of this security code?

          • gruez 19 minutes ago
            "eavesdropped"?

            "spied"?

            Whatever it is, slapping "steal" on it because what was done is wrong, and stealing is wrong, is the same sloppy logic that the copyright lobby used in the 80s/90s.

          • koolala 19 minutes ago
            The crime there is using that knowledge illegally to break in.
          • mitaphane 19 minutes ago
            learned
    • qotgalaxy 32 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • apatheticonion 8 minutes ago
    Does this mean someone could develop a switch emulator using an AI and Nintendo couldn't win a lawsuit against them?

    Does it enable decompilation remasters of classic games?

    It feels like AI is a cleanroom laundromat

    • smilespray 5 minutes ago
      Definitely not clean room, quite the opposite.
    • cwillu 6 minutes ago
      “That doesn't give you copyright, but it does give you liability for the content.”
  • Balooga 8 minutes ago
    This then implies that in the EU, AI-generated content cannot have a license applied? MIT, GPL, CC, etc?
  • femto 35 minutes ago
    1) Does applying a copyright message warrant that the content has not been generated by an AI?

    2) If one applies a copyright message to AI generated output, is that fraudulent?

  • generationP 41 minutes ago
    Why should anyone want to have copyright on AI-generated content?
    • xphos 31 minutes ago
      I feel like this question is typed wrong but the same reason someone wants copyright on human work to make money by prevent other people from stealing your work
    • thfuran 40 minutes ago
      For the same reason they'd want copyright on anything else.
    • toomuchtodo 40 minutes ago
      To profit under intellectual property constructs. As it stands, AI output is effectively in the public domain.
      • derektank 5 minutes ago
        Given the cost of generating images/text/etc. is much lower when using an AI system, as compared to a human, this seems appropriate. The purpose of intellectual property is to encourage people to invest that time into creating works that benefit others. Perhaps there’s an argument for a shorter copyright period to cover the cost of the compute spent, but certainly one wouldn’t expect AI intellectual property to require a similar level of incentive to produce.
      • phoronixrly 37 minutes ago
        Probably unless it infringes on others' copyright as it does...
  • efficax 35 minutes ago
    Does this apply to software?
  • bahmboo 59 minutes ago
    I will add a pixel by "hand" with software on my computer.
    • Retric 52 minutes ago
      That’s not enough to generate copyright protection.

      The creativity requirements may seem arbitrary but there’s a legal distinction between a sculpture and a standard brick.

      • gruez 40 minutes ago
        >The creativity requirements may seem arbitrary but there’s a legal distinction between a sculpture and a standard brick.

        Or more relevantly, a recipe find on recipe sites (with the author's entire backstory) vs a sequence of instructions. The latter is not copyrightable, even if there was some creativity that went into it (eg. word choice).

  • jongjong 20 minutes ago
    If the AI is treated as an agent and not merely as a tool, then this should also apply on the training side.

    AI agents are effectively consuming people's code without permission. The MIT license only gives rights to "any person obtaining a copy of this software".

    So the rights are given to a 'person', and the rights pertain specifically to a person who performed the act of 'obtaining a copy of this software'.

    Note that it says 'obtaining a copy' and uses the word 'software', not 'code'. 'Software' is to 'code' what 'shop' is to 'building'; if you bought the shop, it doesn't necessarily mean you own the building. These are two different things and require different clauses.

    Scraping the code in-situ from millions of repos automatically, systematically, and indiscriminately with no intent to use or distribute the software, does not involve a 'person obtaining a copy of the software' The subject at hand is an 'AI agent scraping the code of the software'; that's not the same subject and the MIT license says nothing about this situation.

  • bediger4000 1 hour ago
    Interesting. In addition to Anthropic's watermark use to prevent model collapse, we can definitively call something copyrighted or not copyrighted. This is a boon to everyone who consumes culture.
    • jefftk 49 minutes ago
      That doesn't actually work. Say you took a book and used an AI to translate it into another language. The translation wouldn't have an additional copyright, the way it would if a human had done the work, but the output would still be restricted by the original copyright. So the presence of the watermark does not tell you that the text is public domain.
      • pizzly 31 minutes ago
        I thought translations can be copyrighted separately. Their are translators for instance who translate very old texts from other countries/languages and then sell that book/translation using copyright to protect this business models? Not sure but does this mean if you as a human wrote a book in English and then used AI to translate to another language say French then that translated work would not be copyrighted. Not sure how this would work.
        • freeone3000 20 minutes ago
          Translation, in and of itself, is viewed as a creative work. A translated work has two copyrights: the original, and the translation, with permission needed from all rightsholders to redistribute. A new translation of a public domain work (Emily Wilson’s The Odyssey) has one copyright holder, the translator. An existing work (the English translation of The Three Body Problem) has at least two: the original author and the translator.

          However! Since AI work is noncopyrightable, the AI’s effort in translation is simply ignored. Claude’s The Odyssey would have zero rightsholders, and remain public domain. ChatGPT’s translation of The Three Body Problem would still be under Liu Cixin’s copyright.

    • chungusamongus 39 minutes ago
      Lmao. No. Content that is wholesale generated by AI is also not subject to copyright in the US. It relies on the honor system and you can always modify the material juuuust enough that you can claim the copyright. In practical terms, this changes nothing.
  • chungusamongus 43 minutes ago
    The same is true in the US. This is a nothing burger.
    • VanTheBrand 36 minutes ago
      It hadn’t been established yet in the EU. It would be a big deal if it went the other way in Europe so it being the same isn’t a nothing burger.
      • semiquaver 10 minutes ago
        It hasn’t been established in the US either, despite how desperately some people want to misinterpret the handful of cases so far.
      • chungusamongus 29 minutes ago
        Did anyone expect it to go the other way? Europe is more hardcore about copyright than the US, and that's saying something. Germany is practically...well I was going to say they're nazis about it but perhaps that's in poor taste.
    • phoronixrly 39 minutes ago
      It may be a nothing burger for US companies/persons, but the EU is fortunately not governed by US law. This is big news for us here.
      • mod50ack 35 minutes ago
        It's not surprising, though, since the ECJ held in the Infopaq case that copyright (under the EU Directives) can only exist for something which is the intellectual creation of an author.
      • chungusamongus 28 minutes ago
        It's not big news if you know anything about Europe in relation to IP law. No one expected a different result.
  • bbor 25 minutes ago
    Thank god! A victory for everyone who believes in the freedom of information, regardless of what you think about AI.

    Copyright didn't always exist, nor should it continue to. Hell; it must not.

    I think the words (read: hilarious 1.25pp pamphlet) of Aaron Swartz on the topic are just too poignant to ignore, given the paths of Reddit (corrupted yet democratic), IP law (malignant yet showing cracks), and government survellience have taken in the Trump era. Despite the dated context... he really says it best:

    https://ia800101.us.archive.org/1/items/GuerillaOpenAccessMa...

  • consoleable 46 minutes ago
    If copyright does not protect AI-generated content, then AI should not be restricted from generating content that falls under copyright protection; yet, the reality is otherwise.
    • VanTheBrand 38 minutes ago
      That’s not how that would work at all. The copyright of a derivative work has no effect on the existing copyright of an underlying work.

      If you record yourself reading a book, you own the audio recording copyright but it would be a copyright violation to reproduce that copy without a license for the underlying rights.

      In this situation:

      If the AI generates the audio recording of a book, no one owns the copyright of the audio recording but it would still be a copyright violation to reproduce that copy without the underlying rights.

    • jraph 41 minutes ago
      These two things that are quite distinct. Whether something is protected by copyright, it should not be counterfeiting regardless.
    • phoronixrly 44 minutes ago
      > If copyright does not protect AI-generated content, then AI should not be restricted from generating content that falls under copyright protection

      What in the world makes you think that?

      What is this implication based upon? Where does it say in copyright law that if no copyright arises for your work then it does not infringe the copyright holders' rights? This is completely devoid of logic...